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to Christians, (and maybe jews): How do you explain how God.went from being kind of a racist and manipulative douchebag in the OT, to the open, passive, and altruistic deity he is in the NT? by NarcoticNarcosisin DebateReligion

[–]Natefil 0 points1 point ago

sorry, but from from the idea of "creator" does not follow the idea of "allowed to torture eternally," or, "can kill at his own discretion."

Mind if we discuss this in private messages?

to Christians, (and maybe jews): How do you explain how God.went from being kind of a racist and manipulative douchebag in the OT, to the open, passive, and altruistic deity he is in the NT? by NarcoticNarcosisin DebateReligion

[–]Natefil 8 points9 points ago

I'm exhausted and have, over the past few days, gotten into too many debates for my own good but I'll give a small answer. If you want to have a dialogue about this just send me private messages, I prefer that.

First, like most of the ideas and questions that we face you have to work from a Christian framework and a Christian conception of God. The view of God then works its way back into the definition of life and the situation that arose in the OT.

Second, we'll look at the narrative of the Old Testament and what was happening exactly in the story of Israel.

Third, we'll allow for one to disregard that completely and work from a perspective whereby we assume Israel was working from the will of God in the first place and talk about why it was still not terrible.

I'm not going to create a dichotomy between the OT and the NT God as I believe there isn't one.

(Note: I'm not going to provide evidence of God, please allow me to assume that God exists as the Judeo-Christian tradition understands him so that I can simply answer this to show how the issue is not a problematic one)

So the idea of God: Well, the Bible says that God is a loving, just, omniscient and omnipotent deity. He was before everything and from him everything traces its origin. Because he is the creator of it all he is also the rightful owner for all that exists. This is important because we tend to think that life itself is owed to us, whether it be long life, comfort or wealth. This perplexes me because it implies that I have a way to judge what is due me. So since God is the creator of all things the very fact that he wishes to take a life (or return a life to him since death is not the end) is not something that is wrong. Murder, rape, and all of those crimes against others are so heinous because not only do they harm another individual but they assume ownership over a life that is not assigned to us. So, from this we can gain a view that God simply "taking a life" is not wrong by any objective view of justice. Furthermore, our view of our own purpose tends to skew away from what I view God's as. For instance, you mention razing nations to the ground as if the very act of destroying a construct of man was a bad thing. Ignoring the loss of life would God instigating the destruction of a building against our will be a bad thing? I don't think so. What about a government? Also, I would argue not. So without going into any specifics we may come to a conclusion that the very question itself is a curious one indeed.

But let's disregard that for a second and say that I've simply spoke gibberish. The second explanation (which only further demonstrates that God is not cruel) is the narrative of the old testament. I had a post on this in this very subreddit a while back so I'm going to copy and paste it. Basically, we tend to view what happened in the Old Testament as the specificities of God's plan when in fact the the specific instances are diverted courses but the plan as a whole goes directly where God wants. Let me explain.

Why did God create man? Why not stick with angels? Why make anything at all? He obviously doesn't need us. We don't give him anything he doesn't already possess and he was in existence long before we poked our heads into this universe.

The simple answer is that God created us because of an aspect of his character. God is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent but he is also loving. That is the key. He creates angels and man so that they can enjoy an aspect of his nature or many aspects to his nature. Angels can see his power, they see the extent of his divine will but they cannot see a certain perspective on their own. They cannot see his love and grace.

So God creates man with that intent. Man will be able to enjoy him in a way that angels could not.

God creates man so that he can choose to follow God and thereby see God's benevolence and love. God creates man with one divine edict, and this is key, that man will choose God over all else and that God will walk amongst man in unadulterated glory.

That is the foundation for everything we see in the scriptures. It is a divine edict that man can turn away as much as a raindrop can seek to divert the tide.

So God creates man with this purpose and man turns away. It's hard to imagine rectifying that situation. It would seem that this divine edict has been turned to a trite piece of failure. But that is when you get the message loud and clear: nothing we can do can turn God from the ultimate purpose.

Man is cast out from the Garden of Eden and wanders. Eventually you come to an old man in the middle of the desert and his baron wife. God tells them that his plan is only beginning to be shown and he chooses them to begin his nation. They laugh, how can God give them children, he must be joking. And God turns that on his head by giving them a son and telling them to name him Isaac or "He laughs/will laugh" for God's plan cannot be undone and his will cannot be avoided. He tells Abraham that he will reach the world through Abraham's children and that through him all will be blessed. So from the patriarchs God founds a nation despite all of the patriarchs doing their own stupid things trying to either help God out (like having a son through another woman) or trying to do things that would actively end God's will (like killing Joseph) but all for naught because God's plan is greater than the expanses of our vision.

This is where the story really comes together.

Israel is in captivity in Egypt. How will God do anything with them when they are slaves? God picks the most unlikely person to reach them. A son of Israel that has grown in the house of Pharaoh, been educated by his men, but cannot speak with any elocution. God uses this man to free Israel.

Now there is something that could have happened. Israel could have followed God and an alternate history would have transpired. Israel would go through the desert straight to the land promised to them. The peoples of the land knew that God was with them and they would willingly allow Israel to pass and set up a temple for the world. Israel was a priest nation, what should have happened was that they should have set up a temple and behaved as priests, ushering others to the one true God. People would have known the power of God was behind them and they would follow those who worshiped the one and only Lord. Christ would have entered the world but not hidden as a child, but exalted as a savior. He would have to die but would be offered by the high priest as a replacement sacrifice for the lamb that was usually used. It would be intentional but not willful. Christ would die, be buried and rise again three days later and immediately enter Israel's temple and usher in the new heaven and new earth.

But that didn't happen.

Israel was the worst possible people to choose but God was showing something through them. He was showing that his edict would come to be despite the failures of man. Israel didn't want to leave Egypt once they got to the desert, but God freed them anyway. Israel wanted to replace God with idols but God protected them anyway. Israel feared the people's of the promised land but God gave them the land anyway. Israel became a wayward people but God demonstrated his power to the surrounding nations regardless. Israel refused to worship God but God ensured the safety of the faithful. Christ came to the world as God intended from the moment sin entered into the picture but not as a savior. He was ignored, ridiculed, beaten, and mocked. But it didn't matter, because God had made his edict long ago. Israel sacrificed Christ but not in the manner they should have.

Israel failed to reach the world but that didn't matter, because God had told man that he would walk amongst them in purity. So Christ does not enter the temple upon coming back to life. Instead he forms a people who's shear love for him would spread across the world like a wildfire and ignite the hearts of men and women from every generation and every people. Once every people had been reached God would enter in the new heaven and new earth and man, purified by God and saved by grace, would walk with God in purity and righteousness and admire him for his omniscience, omnipotence and love.

So what we see when we look back to this is that the intention (initial intention) is not to wipe out these nations. That is a consequence of Israel not following God's instruction. Had Israel been completely faithful they would have walked into the Promise Land and the other nations would have seen the glory of God marching with them and followed. But because of Israel's lack of faith the other nations fell. If the priest is corrupt do you expect the followers to be saints?

The final point, and this is in regards to the specific instances. It would be preferable to address specific instances separately as doing one sweeping answer will lose a lot of information and be more prone to showing holes because I'm not addressing things directly. Many of the nations were actually evil ones not simply in the way of Israel. Child sacrifices and other such corruptions permeated many of the cultures and these things easily corrupted such a weak nation as Israel so they had to be removed. It is not enough to scold cancer, sometimes you have to cut it out. Furthermore, many of the nations new, very clearly, that God was directly behind Israel and the act of getting in their way was an act of defiance against God. Finally, as many of the nations were subjugated before Israel so too was Israel subjugated by nations as per the will of God. We tend to view it as one sided but really God uses nations to punish other nations throughout history.

That's it...verbal vomit done...I'm going to bed.

Edit: God, I have to edit something because I left out a huge detail in the second point. That's incoming.

To Everyone: Please critique my thought experiment regarding a loving (Christian) God and hell. by c_programmerin DebateReligion

[–]Natefil 1 point2 points ago

Going to take a break here and turn this into a personal message so that I can bring it up later. I don't want this to stop but my brain is shutting down because of the amount of debates I'm trying to carry on at once.

To Theists: Are atheists lacking in understanding or experience? by Adtwerkin DebateReligion

[–]Natefil 0 points1 point ago

The difference is that I believe the faith in Christianity is the result of God working in someone's life. The reason I would not be deluded if, as a skeptic, I never rejected the false teachings of Christianity is because there is no way to know if I was pressed with everything. If the God of Christianity is true then this changes a bit. He can know with precision the heart of man and he can know if the skeptic received every avenue of philosophical confrontation.

God, I'm not making sense. Bring this up again later when my brain starts working again and I'll answer you more eloquently.

To Theists: Are atheists lacking in understanding or experience? by Adtwerkin DebateReligion

[–]Natefil 0 points1 point ago

I've actually done this before and couldn't keep up. I prefer to enter into dialogues with individuals rather than groups for a number of reasons. I've found when I post in threads like this I cannot possibly keep up with anyone so there is no need for anyone to come to a conclusion as to why they should believe. They could be wrong and I could show them but then someone could jump in and distract the issue with something else and I can't follow up.

What I like to do is have skype conversations with friends or chat at the bar over some beers rather than type everything because then it becomes easier to focus on small things. I'm currently having a conversation with another person on reddit and each post just gets so long that in any one conversation a good point could be ignored without the other debater realizing it.

To Theists: Are atheists lacking in understanding or experience? by Adtwerkin DebateReligion

[–]Natefil -1 points0 points ago

No. More the reverse. Knowledge of the absence of God is impossible just like knowledge of the absence of a purple elf somewhere in the universe is also impossible. Also knowledge of God in the sense of scientific knowledge is not possible for a few reasons (God cannot be put inside a test tube, a divine act by God could be explained away, etc). However, there can be knowledge or experience based faith in God on a personal level. Exhausting alternatives, a man could come to see that Christianity is more true than any other philosophy. Seeing miracles a man could be led to faith. Facing his own nature, a man could recognize destitution and the realization could come. The avenues are varied but it is possible to believe and be rational (in my opinion).

To Theists: Are atheists lacking in understanding or experience? by Adtwerkin DebateReligion

[–]Natefil 0 points1 point ago

Oh God. That is such a good question. I have overextended into too many threads so I can't give you the full attention this deserves so if you find my answer lacking (which it will be) remind me in a few days that I have not given you that which you asked for and I'll try to pick up where I left off.

I believe that there are evidences of God in many different avenues. There is experiential evidence (spiritual warfare in third world countries, miracles, visions, etc.). There is historical evidence (accurate prophecies, etc.). There is scientific evidence (really not my strong suit because I'm an economist not an astronomer so please don't push this one on me). There is philosophical evidence (explanations for current conditions, "God shaped holes" in humanity, etc.).

To Theists: Are atheists lacking in understanding or experience? by Adtwerkin DebateReligion

[–]Natefil -1 points0 points ago

So lets pretend I start this search for god. At what point am I allowed to conclude that your god does not exist if no answer in the positive has arrived?

You could never conclude that there is no God. You can't posit an absence. If you have honestly searched and die without ever concluding that there is a God then I would expect that my theology falls apart.

Lets say I pray for 2 hours ever day (1 hour in the morning 1 in the evening) and read the bible for 2 hours ever day and I go to church every week. So I keep this up for 3 months, no answer... am I allowed to conclude that the Christian god is false?

I'm getting all of my conversations confused because I'm dealing with so many people here. But what I've said before is that there is no formula. God doesn't work by our metrics for efficient response times. I believe, and I believe I can back this up, that the Christian God will open up the honest searcher to the realization eventually. It may require pain, it may require waiting, it may require many things, but the Bible argues that they will eventually see.

To Theists: Are atheists lacking in understanding or experience? by Adtwerkin DebateReligion

[–]Natefil 0 points1 point ago

No, because it's not the issue. My qualm with your position is this: if somebody searches and finds God, your position finds support, but if somebody searches and does not find God, your position dismisses that person for not honestly searching. When no possible outcome can disconfirm your hypothesis, it's not even wrong.

The question is in regards to our theologies. Assuming my theology is true then all who seek will be granted sight.

I guess the logic is like this:

Given: All actions A lead to result B for an individual
Stipulation: Person Z does not have result B.
Therefore: Person Z did not do action A.

If you are allowing us to work from our faiths for this question than "all who seek will find" is the given. Therefore if someone is standing before the throne of God and they are passed into judgment then they must not have sought. The problem is that we can't discuss specifics. I believe there are many honest skeptics who will be skeptical for a while but I believe that if they are seeking they'll eventually see the truth.

Once more: if someone claims to have honestly searched and not found God, it is your position that they did not actually honestly search (by modus tollens, given your earlier statement). If that's not questioning someone's sincerity, I don't know what is.

This would require them to be dead.

Violence inherent in the system by Natefilin TheAgora

[–]Natefil[S] 0 points1 point ago

1) Well, most likely Jack will have a security firm that will defend him so it is in her best interest to use means at her disposal to receive the compensation that had been agreed upon.
2) After all is done and sad taxes take about 50% of our wealth in the United States. So in theory we would be 50% wealthier. Jill can attempt to go without a security company like she could go without health insurance, it's a risk she's allowed to take. If she gets into a situation she could probably pay for a one time service rendered or if she is unable to afford that (some pretty big ifs) then she can look to charities for help.
3) In theory one might assume so but in practice it doesn't end up that way. You may be more efficient at getting rights enforced, you may have a more adept security firm but security firms have very strong incentives to be just in their arbitration and ultimately they have to have things decided by third parties.
4) Well we can get into how you would try to fuck people up. Do you use your own skills or do you hire goons?

To Theists: Are atheists lacking in understanding or experience? by Adtwerkin DebateReligion

[–]Natefil 0 points1 point ago

I'm sorry but I didn't follow. I don't have to say what?

Violence inherent in the system by Natefilin TheAgora

[–]Natefil[S] 0 points1 point ago

You don't want the money for the healthcare? If you want the money for healthcare then you are accepting the raise. If you don't then you can look for a job that provides a better situation or look for alternatives.

I disagree that the employer has a disproportionate amount of power. I think that circumstances have merely changed and you need much better alternatives to induce you to switch jobs than you did initially. Now, the employer could try to take advantage of that. Realizing that you're in a poor situation he may try to heap more work on you. But two things happen:
1) All of the other employees can see that and may view working with him to be too risky.
2) He is raising the marginal benefits of you switching jobs thus encouraging you to spend more time looking for alternatives.

To Everyone: Please critique my thought experiment regarding a loving (Christian) God and hell. by c_programmerin DebateReligion

[–]Natefil 0 points1 point ago

Now imagine that student gave some explanation that had absolutely no math or science behind it, he says he has faith that it is true. That is equivalent to seeing something happen and insisting that it is part of Gods plan.

You're missing the point I'm trying to make here. I'm referencing Chaos Theory. A student studying meteorlogy could no more tell you why the hurricane is shaped exactly the way it is as I could tell you exactly why something happens the way it does. There are too many factors involved. I can give possibilities just as he could but does that really account for much?

I was not wrong if you look at the way Judaism was, the relationship with god was entirely different back then and it closely resembled the other polytheistic religions of the time.

Samuel talking to God. David as a man after God's own heart. Elijah hearing the voice of God through a whisper. All aspects of personal relationship.

That was the starting point of my journey to atheism. But if you have faith...

That's absolutely fine. It may be that honest questioning takes you towards atheism but I believe that honest questioning, actually seeking truth, will bring people to God.

My view on human rights is that God does not absolutely own life like this. We are sentient beings that can feel pain, him creating us does not make it OK for him to torture his people at will without apparent cause. This of course fails if god is evil.

Are we owed comfort?

What questions would be ignored? If anything questions would be more adequately explained because no one is being forced to arrive at a particular conclusion.

Someone asks me to explain why there was genocide in the Bible. I start to explain it and then someone else says "Wait, now you're assuming that the Bible is true." So I have to back up and say why I think that the Bible is true given the quantity of other theologies and then someone else says "Now you're assuming that there is a deity" So I have to back up again and show why I think that there is a deity. In the midst of all of this I could not answer the original question.

I still see the idea of eternal hell for merely not believing in God as very unjust. I don't see any substance to seeing hell as some sort of a "last resort" for lost souls or anything like that, the Bible makes it quite clear that it is a punishment.

Wow. We did get off topic. Do you want to start from scratch and begin with this again and try to keep our posts on single topics?

To Theists: Are atheists lacking in understanding or experience? by Adtwerkin DebateReligion

[–]Natefil 0 points1 point ago

I'm not saying that I'm right and you'll eventually see it. I'm talking about all of humanity. Every single individual. If you are seeking then ask me any question about my faith, anything at all, and I'll try to answer it.

To Theists: Are atheists lacking in understanding or experience? by Adtwerkin DebateReligion

[–]Natefil 0 points1 point ago

That is not what I'm saying. Ask any question and I'll try to answer it. If we're talking about the $20 thing and I say that you owe me $20 I would expect you to ask questions upon questions. I also expect you to challenge every aspect of my faith.

That isn't what this discussion is about. We aren't asking whether people can question my faith. We're asking whether (from perspective fueled by omniscience) a lack of faith can be ascribed to a lack of understanding or experience.

Violence inherent in the system by Natefilin TheAgora

[–]Natefil[S] 0 points1 point ago

Yes but you are missing the payment you are now receiving. Originally when you were working at this job you were getting paid a salary minus the cost that goes towards your healthcare. So for you to switch jobs you simply had to have a better offer. Now though your child has essentially given you a massive raise. You are getting paid your salary minus the costs of heathcare plus all of the costs of his medical bills. So in order for an alternative job to be better it would have to have a salary greater than the salary you receive plus the healthcare benefits directed towards your child.

To Theists: Are atheists lacking in understanding or experience? by Adtwerkin DebateReligion

[–]Natefil 1 point2 points ago

1) The question was directed at our personal philosophies so I'm answering from a purely Christian perspective. It is immune to criticism in this instance because there could be a multitude of reasons and people don't seem to like that idea. The reason someone doesn't believe could be very different from the reason someone else doesn't believe. Do you contest that claim?

2) I don't question sincerity. I haven't questioned anyone's sincerity and if someone asks me a question about my faith I work to the best of my ability to answer it. As long as someone is alive on this earth I cannot doubt their intention to seek truth.

Violence inherent in the system by Natefilin TheAgora

[–]Natefil[S] 0 points1 point ago

Can you tell me what you mean by ensubstatiation? The term is above my head.

Violence inherent in the system by Natefilin TheAgora

[–]Natefil[S] 1 point2 points ago

He has broken a contract and thus has to be removed from the situation or pay to recoup the loss. If he cannot pay then a security firm for Jill, whose private property he is essentially invading, will take actions as peacefully as possible (or risk negative press and lost revenue) to remove him from the situation or get him to pay.

To Theists: Are atheists lacking in understanding or experience? by Adtwerkin DebateReligion

[–]Natefil 0 points1 point ago

No. I'm not saying that you have to accept something as true to see it. I'm saying you can hold to all of your skepticism. You can poke and prod and attack and question. That is fine. But if you are actually doing that in the hopes of having a better grasp of whether there is truth to any of this then I believe you will come to the right answer.

As to why someone can't see what I believe to be truth at this juncture is really impossible to answer because I can't speak as to the hearts and minds of each individual person. I'm more giving an answer from a theological standpoint. If we assume that my religion is true, why do some people not believe right now? That is what I'm answering.

As to the $20 thing. The reason I'm not answering it is because so much is lost by the removal of the divine from the picture. For instance, you don't know where I will look, you don't know how I will look, you don't know where all evidences are, you don't know with whom I will interact. All of those things are perfectly and completely known by God.

To Theists: Are atheists lacking in understanding or experience? by Adtwerkin DebateReligion

[–]Natefil -1 points0 points ago

The reason that I didn't give specifics is, like I said, because God works on an individual basis. I've had friends who just asked question upon question before suddenly having faith come to them. I've had other friends who felt more like they were trying to run from God but being pursued by the hounds of heaven. I've had others yet who had emotional walls built up in their lives and that they had to deal with those first to see God's hand. Yet others I know who were wealthy and well off and only really came to see God when everything they worked for crumbled before their eyes.

That is why I cannot tell you what will work for you. I don't know you, Adtwerk, so I can't tell you which route may apply to you personally.

Violence inherent in the system by Natefilin TheAgora

[–]Natefil[S] -1 points0 points ago

New comment so that more people can see it.

To Everyone: Please critique my thought experiment regarding a loving (Christian) God and hell. by c_programmerin DebateReligion

[–]Natefil 0 points1 point ago

With weather predictions we see incoming factors and an outcome of what actually happens.

Now imagine asking a student studying meteorology why the hurricane did not extend 2 feet on the left side.

This again comes to faith. You believe, not you've so far observed. With that absolutely everything that can possibly happen only strengthens your case because you know that God will eventually tie it together. This is not an observation based conclusion, it is faith and that can not be argued.

I see patterns and the way things work together. Yes, it is based on faith. I don't think I've ever said that I don't have faith but I do base it on observations of experiences and little glimpses in history. For instance, imagine that I'm an ant sitting on a giant mural and you and I are standing on top of a little bit of red next to a little bit of green and you ask me what the whole picture is. Well, I don't have the vantage point to give you the answer but what I can say is that I believe that it is not all red on one side and not all green on another side because I had a glimpse of another location where the colors began to form a tree when they were seen as a whole.

My statement is definitely over simplified, but Christianity came out of Judaism when people believed that Jesus was the messiah.

I don't see how that backs up your point. You were wrong as to the nature of the relationship Jews see as existing between man and God.

Other than the fathers genetic role, yes, in all physical ways (I reject metaphysical notions such as a soul). Giving birth is not a supernatural event.

Did she create the neutrons, protons and electrons?

Neither, I am asking God to reveal himself so that people like me who don't have faith can see him.

And I believe that you'll eventually see him and come to believe given that as a starting point.

It caries the point I am trying to make. Human rights still apply even if your creator is the one doing something terrible to you.

Okay, so life belongs to God. As the creator and author we don't exactly own ourselves in a strict sense. If God takes a life back to him has he robbed us of something? We view life as this asset we possess but in reality we are on borrowed time from the first breath.

I'm confused, is God going to bring everything together or not? First you tell me that everything is in Gods perfect plan and that all evil will be turned into good, then you tell me that we don't have the authority to call certain things evil, then you tell me that God will bring all of human history together and now you're telling me that these bad things are distortions of Gods perfect will. Which is it?

A fair question. Evil are distortions of inherently good things caused by the fall. God uses even the most evil things that man can devise and turns the end product into something good though we may not be able to see it at the time. Life belongs to God so the act of God taking a life is not a bad thing because we, again, are on borrowed time.

People make the best of what they have, it is just what they do. Once that is done you'll tack God on and say he was the reason for it even though he played no part.

How do you know what I'll do? In fact, I wouldn't argue that at all. Instead I would argue that these things work on a spiritual level for the glory of God (though physical effects can be seen). The soul and not the skin is the focal point of man.

That's not exactly what I'm saying, I'm saying that you're starting everything with the conclusion that you're right and wrap everything you see around that conclusion.

I could never possibly hope to answer this question if I didn't start with that assumption. We'd be tied down in demonstrating the existence of God and ALL of these questions would be ignored. The question is directed at the Christian conception of a loving God. It attempts to show where our logic is flawed and contradictory by its own nature. I'm showing that that is simply not the case. This issue is not a problem in Christianity.

To Theists: Are atheists lacking in understanding or experience? by Adtwerkin DebateReligion

[–]Natefil 0 points1 point ago

It's hubristic to answer just about any question pertaining to God because I cannot possibly know with certainty. If you are asking my opinion then I can give that and my opinion is based off of patterns I see throughout the Bible.

To Theists: Are atheists lacking in understanding or experience? by Adtwerkin DebateReligion

[–]Natefil 1 point2 points ago

You can't know if you have permanent unbelief because it may be that a person is hard-hearted at this point but that something breaks that later. If you honestly want to know the answer to the questions of life and are really seeking then you have temporary unbelief.

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